Question from an American: Do blacks in SA target whites?

[Jaybang]

Obugi.

Round round baby, round round. The world is in a mess and people like you are going to keep it this way.

Now listen here, you just drag your ass back to Nigeria as you say, and you go give them white people hell... Go for it. Vat hulle fluffy.

[Edited by Jaybang on 27th June 2003 at 10:16]

[Karagatho]

Yep! we'll all listen to Nubiman and have a nice big fat
war here in good ol' Africa ,White against Black and turn
this place into a festering pit! just so good ol'
Nubiman and Tiger can feel much better back in the good
ol' USA where they can pretend they are the oppressed and
feel sorry for themselves and turn out all the good ol'
hollywoodisms on how the Bronks is so tough because
the American brothers kick ass?

let me ask you a question ? is your pride really worth turning
100.000.000 people into rotting corpses ?
and turning Africa into a hell hole ? a place that is
actually full of real people ? and is actually beginning
to make it,thank you very much.....
who the Hell are you ? Satan himself ?

You might notice I'm leaving all my looney stuff out of this,
and thats because I still firmly believe Africa still can make it
and there is only one path, each goverment of each country
must first be made powerfull so they can bring order, then
there MUST be a concentrated effort at education
and then everything else just happens by itself
Sure theres things wrong with this, like the Mugabe's of
the world , but even under those conditions this can be done

Genocide ? You Americans can keep it!

[Nubianman]

Bro Obugi,
Nice to hear positive and unfearful views such as yours. People need to hear the truth however bitter it may taste.

[Greg1]

Originally posted by obugi
To Greg1,

...I just graduated from Pharmacy school, I'm heading to Law school and my objective is to head back to Africa and give you white people HELL, starting in Nigeria, my home country. You must learn that on our continent, you must live by OUR rules, however capricious they are. I want to exploit YOU for a change.

...Over in Zimbabwe the cry is now for rule of law, property rights blah, blah. Are you truly oblivious of the inequities that have been entrenched by white domination and conquest?

With allies like Obugi, Africa doesn't need enemies. Great. Go home to Nigeria and turn it into Liberia. At the end of the day I hope you're proud of yourself.

Instead of mocking the Rule of Law, Africa would be much better served if you were to help Africa apply the Rule of Law there. Do you realize that, when you close a farm in Zimbabwe it's not just whites who are getting hurt? Most of the workers were black, you know. Where are these blacks now? They're probably unemployed and waiting in line for bread. Tell me then how the land seizures have helped the black worker?

Yeah, land "reform" has worked great for them.

[Nubianman]

Obugi,
Keep your head high, these racists are everywhere and as you can see rather than address the issues you raised with regards to "why Zimbabwe and European domination", they are onto your back.

[Greg1]

Originally posted by obugi
To Greg1,

...I'm heading to Law school and my objective is to head back to Africa and give you white people HELL, starting in Nigeria, my home country. You must learn that on our continent, you must live by OUR rules, however capricious they are. I want to exploit YOU for a change.

All that whites have done the world over is expropriate, steal, suppress, exploit and colonize...

Obugi.

Obugi,

Why should anyone be forced to live under "capricious" rules? To me, if you ask me to live under "capricious" rules, you're asking me to endure corruption and political repression mixed in with tyranny. It's unacceptable that ANY human being should be forced to endure such conditions. People of ALL colors and ethnicities deserve freedom and transparency in government. That you should suggest that you're going to use some backward rules to "exploit" certain segments of the population is ludicrous and will serve to hurt your people as much as or more than the "white" people whom you seem destined to "exploit." As I said, NO people deserve to live under capricious laws and you're seeming willingness to use them to your advantage will only serve to further cement Africa's position at the bottom of the world's food chain. And it will not be the fault of some colonial power; It will be the fault of an African who was educated in the West, but failed to bring home with him lessons learned in lawful governence. What a shame.

Let there be no doubt that the colonial influence on Africa was imperfect and, at times, brutal. But there is a reason why southern Africa was and is far more prosperous than the rest of the continent; it is and was far more "Westernized" than the rest of Africa. Like it or not, this is a good thing. The "evil Europeans" were on to something with the civilization they raised at home and brought to their colonies. They brought a civilization based upon the Rule of Law and individual responsibility and its spread lifted all of southern Africa.

I'm not ignoring the horrow of racism that prevailed in the region, but it is not ridiculous to say that the prosperous civilization that is South Africa today would not have happened without European colonization. There is no denying that. Nubianman will say, "fine, I wish the black Africans would have been left to run the coninent themselves." I say that it was right to introduce capitalism and order to a continent rife with feudalism and barbarism. And it is my belief that blacks in southern Africa are better off today because it is the place in Africa where European influence was greatest. Look at the rest of Africa for your proof.

[UmfanaMadala]

I have read through large portions of this site with interest and the views of some of our Amercian and Nigerian friends are disturbing. In a country of our diversity we have no choice but to lean towards moderation. Extreme ideas such as those of some of our friends usurp other more constructive thoughts. I find then confining and maddeningly dull. Understanding, tolerance and resulting partnerships are the way forward. Extremism is easy - it requires less effort to understand the views of others.

I am a white South African who will be returning home in the next few months – yes, home to Africa! Only yesterday I heard of the young son of a friend pulled out of his car and shot in the back of his head at point blank – apparently for being white. This was a senseless crime, perhaps payback for years of suffering, perhaps a message to get out the country, perhaps the desperate frustration of some black youths, perhaps motivated by similar attitudes to those of some of our friends. I doubt if there is a person in our big cities (black and white) who has not experienced a crime of this nature reasonably close to home. In this world of ours we need to understand the realities of our respective situations and find the best path forward. Extreme attitudes whether it be in the form of racist Europeans, racist Blacks, Islamic or Christian fundamentalists are the worst enemy.

The majority of white South Africans are not going anywhere, this is our home, there are many of us, and we are strong. Black South African are not going anywhere, this is their home, there are many more of them, and they are strong too. We have fought each other for 200 years and we are tired of it. That is the reality of our situation. I understand that the balance of power has moved and that there are no longer certainties for white South Africans. I understand that we are becoming a truly African country. I understand the atrocities of the past, I am sorry for the atrocities of the past and want to contribute in putting things right. I also understand the enormous contribution that white and black South Africans together have made to South Africa, contributions that have made us the economic powerhouse of Africa, the worlds leading emerging nation, and an important voice for Africa and the developing world on the global stage today. I am not prepared to be chased out of our country because of the crimes of my ancestors. I understand that we need to continue changing. Even PW Botha knew it! He waved his big figure at white South Africa and said “Adapt or die” in the early 80’s. During the great uprising of the 80’s and early 90’s our leaders began preparing us for the coming change. We voted for change in March 1992. There was no storming of the Bastille, no bitter civil war. We had good leaders, both black and white, we had faith in them, and that was what pulled us through.

I believe that one of the biggest catalysts for changing white attitudes has been the benevolence of our black leaders since 1992. The vision and tolerance of Nelson Mandela has been the guiding light. I draw parallels to American benevolence in post war Japan and post war Germany. The war was won and partnership with the conquered people was the path chosen.

I look forward to returning and contributing to the New South Africa. The common goal that all South Africans have is to improve the lives of our people. I went through the white South African schooling system and grew up surrounded by racist attitudes and belief. I have rejoiced at the gradual and continuing liberation of my own mind and look forward to the continuing rewarding process of seeing my white countrymen gradually changing – and believe me they are! I look forward to my children growing up in a New South Africa with less racial baggage. I look forward to participating in the processes of empowerment and employment equity. I fully support the controlled and orderly land redistribution program. These changes HAVE to happen. It is better, however, if they happen in an orderly and negotiated way. Results at the end of the day have to be MEANINGFUL in the eyes of black South Africans

ABOVE ALL, I believe, that black South Africans need to feel proud and have their dignity restored. This is not going to happen overnight, nor it is not going to happen by clubbing the former oppressor and it is not going to happen by driving the skilled and their wealth out of the country. This will result in a shameful period of starvation, continued violence and further dependency on the West – we do not want that. Pride and dignity will be restored through negotiated and peaceful redistribution and empowerment, changing the attitudes of the former oppressor, cultural progress, economic growth and partnership. New Zealand recruiters were recently in Zimbabwe and could not believe the queues of black professionals lining up to emigrate - we do not want that. There is no pride and dignity in the thousands of Zimbabwean refugees (and no, it is not only the drought) now walking the streets of Johannesburg desperately looking for work in the homes and gardens of white (and black) South Africa.

Our friends are obviously very intelligent people. It would be nice if you would come and visit us one day and get to know us a bit better. You are most welcome. Ten years ago and with a different mindset I would have written you off, but our visionary black leaders have taught me, and continue to teach me, tolerance, understanding and a more loving nature. Like we have to, and want to, and enjoy doing in the New South Africa, let’s meet in the middle somewhere. That way we can start talking about constructive things.