South Africa is going straight to hell.

[ches]

Can you provide any hard evidence that the SA courts are not impartial? Or hard evidence that the US courts are impartial? There was no claim of misconduct on any side in the Zuma rape trial. The fact that the man is an embarrassment and a buffoon and in my opinion not fit to run the ANC or our country does not make him a rapist. His corruption trial will go ahead, and hopefully the prosecution will have their ducks in a row and he will be found guilty - seeing as his adviser is already in jail for having a corrupt relationship with him, it seems natural that the other half of the corrupt relationship should also be guilty.

Zuma's knowledge of HIV is dangerous and that alone in my opinion rules unfit to run the country. I despair at the false hope of the people who elected him head of the ANC and at how he has misled them - at home he was espousing socialist policies while abroad he was assuring investors that SA would stay on Mbeki's capitalist path.

[Skhotha]

Wow, some of the godly announcements are amazing! It is so easy to judge & point fingers I know bcoz I do as well! But come on people lets think a bit. Everyone who is exposed to info on HIV knows that a shower is unlikely to stop the spread of the HI Virus from one person to the other.

What would you say in court if you were HIV+ and one of your many "girlfriends" decide to tell the whole world that you are infected? Would you stand up in court and say " I am HIV+, we have been seeing each other on the side since 1999. I am aware that exposing myself to more HIV can lead to the weakening of my immune system but I am faithful to my 4 wives and my 6 concubines!" ( mind you this statement has nothing to do with Dr Jacob Gedleyihlekisa Zuma it is just an illustration for the sake of debate)

To me the only shame in this whole statement would be that they are all HIV+, not that it is a polygamous community. I believe in polygamy in the proper context, I was raised on it as much as most of the world is raised on monogamy, I don't judge that I don't care. Just like I don't mind cowboys hats but I won't be seen dead in one!

I would follow Mr Zuma as an uneducated man who is where he is on character then follow the educated fool who can only see as far as his borders but thinks he knows what is best for the world of which he has seen so little!!

If the day of the vote finds me on this earth I know where I'll put my cross because I know who I'm voting for. I believe Mr Zuma knows how to delegate those tasks that need doctorates and those that just need accountable leadership.

Ches, my brother, you are one of the most well read people I have come across please help me out. The phrase "generally corrupt relationship" the one that I feel "convinced" the DSO to charge Mr Zuma. Where did it come from? Was it finally proven that the Hon judge Squires did use these words? The last I heard from the shebeen banter, clouded by a few cold ones, was that the judge had denied this statement and invited the person who quoted him to browse the court transcript!

[ches]

Skhotha, my brother, I am your sister.

Why do you say it is shameful of the group in your scenario to be HIV+? Is it shameful to catch a cold? There are many HIV+ people who behaved shamefully to become infected, but there are at least equally many, if not millions more, who did no more than love their spouse, help a bleeding friend, or be born unto and breastfed by an HIV+ mother.

I cannot answer your question about Judge Squires, but I don't think it's possible to build a criminal case on the basis of one sentence uttered by a judge. There was a lot of substance to the Shaik trial, a lot of it incriminating Mr. Zuma, and it's only in the emerging world that someone with such dirty hands and dubious associates can be so overwelmingly popular with the very people who stand to lose the most if the allegations are indeed true.

Do you seriously think that Mr. Zuma is able to lead South Africa in tackling the HIV crisis? Are you not concerned by his duplicity in espousing Socialism at home and Capitalism abroad? I am happy for South Africa to embrace socialism if it is the will of the people, but I really feel that the electorate has been duped by Mr. Zuma and am at a loss as to why Mr. Ramaphosa and Mr. Sexwale have remained so quiet. Do they have friends in high places who have made them the same capitalist assurances that Mr. Zuma was making to the western world?

[Skhotha]

Ha haa, my apologies, my sister, I in no way intended to say that your above average intelligence automatically elevated you to the status of a man!

It is a shame for one and only one reason. The odds of survival for any offspring become slimmer. I know many HIV+ friends and some in my family. They tend not to have children once they discover their status. This means that there are less people who will be raised on the same values I was raised on. Perhaps I chose the wrong word in "shameful".

Besides the utterence of one Bulelani Ngcuka about "prima facie" the phrase " generally corrupt relationship" has done the most damage to Mr Zuma's rep. There is no saintly politician especially in Africa due to the nature of our situation. The one piece of advice I'd give Mr Zuma is that he can't please everyone and that he must sometimes take Mr Mbeki's stance of silence. If there was no chit chat about Mr Zuma and all his "corrupt actions" in the papers do you think he would have been charged?

I believe that Mr Zuma is well versed on HIV and AIDS. He might not follow the advice he preaches but he knows about it and will preach the correct gospel like any good parent who says each your veggies but doesn't dish any up for themselves!

One thing that you must understand is that the ANC is in constant conflict with itself. There are many cliques and sub-cliques based on a number of things. Mr Zuma, as you correctly state, is a Communist/ Socialist. He is in the ANC through the tri partate alliance. I think he might have in fact become a member of the ANC later when he saw an opportunity to lead the party! ( I might be wrong!) There are many people within the party who don't want him to lead! There is also the belief that as an uneducated Zulu man he is an imbacile. Us Zulu's have this poor reputation as monsters who rarely use their brains and would much rather don our animal skins, put on red bandanas, take our traditional weapons and go around asking people what an elbow is in isiZulu and kill those who can't answer. It is sad but it happens, there is still discrimination on tribal denominations to this day!

Good old Tokyo and Cyril are happy making money and cementing their names firmly in the who's who of the world elite! When they have made enough for the next two lifetimes I don't doubt that they will re enter the political community when they need to boost their egos. I wonder if they appeal to you because of their debonnaire and suave manners.(more modern) Don't forget they are in a similar mould to Mr Mbeki!

[ches]

Originally Posted by Skhotha

Good old Tokyo and Cyril are happy making money and cementing their names firmly in the who's who of the world elite! When they have made enough for the next two lifetimes I don't doubt that they will re enter the political community when they need to boost their egos. I wonder if they appeal to you because of their debonnaire and suave manners.(more modern) Don't forget they are in a similar mould to Mr Mbeki!

Ah, my brother, do not forget that Cyril was the trade union leader who wrote the very pro-labour laws into our constitution, and also the man who single-handedly kept our negotiations on track. He was happy to walk in Madiba's shadow in the early days and it's a great irony that the former socialist/unionist is now such a wealthy capitalist! I do not know as much about Mr. Sexwale, but Mr. Ramaphosa has my utmost respect in that he is one of the old school of ANC leaders. I seem to still be stuck in the 1960s as I have sadly spent most of our democratic years outside of our beautiful country and know far more about Mr. Sisulu than his daughter who is an MP.